Michelle is a Registered Dietitian with her Master’s in Health Psychology. She is the owner/founder of Yates Nutrition with a mission to both treat and prevent eating disorders for women all over the world. Michelle ultimately leads women away from habits and behaviors which can be destructive, discouraging, and disordered and leads them to a healthy relationship with food, fitness, and their bodies. Michelle hosts Nourished & Free: The Podcast and lives in the Midwest with her husband, 2 kids, and cat.

In this episode:

• Does the field of dietetics set you up for developing an eating disorder?
• The overlap between restrictive EDs and binge eating
• The top things women who struggled with binging need to know 
• How perfectionism with food can drive binge eating 
• Understanding the clinical definition of Binge Eating Disorder (BED)
• The first steps to healing from BED and improving your relationship with food 

Transcript:

Lindsey Lusson 00:00

What would be the top three things that you wish all women knew about struggling with binge eating disorder?

Michelle Yates  00:05

Well, the number one would just be that there are so many people struggling with it. For somebody that’s listening to this right now, if you struggle with binge eating, think about how much you don’t want to talk about that with other people. Now think about all the other people who also feel that exact same way. But you have no clue, because they also don’t want to talk about it. 

Michelle Yates  00:22

The second thing is, I wish that women knew more about how much their mindset is playing into it. It’s easy to just feel like, Oh, I’m just so weak. I have no willpower. I can’t do this. But then we don’t really dig into the why. I think the third thing too, just kind of playing off of something I mentioned. And the second one is how helpful nutrition can be. 

Michelle Yates  00:41

When somebody comes to me for binging, they’re like, Well, I do so good during the day, I have a protein shake in the morning, I have my salad at lunch, and then in the afternoon, I just start getting this nagging feeling, and I want a snack, and I want a snack. And it’s like, well, sis, you’ve had maybe 300 calories all day.

Lindsey Lusson  00:59

Welcome to the Period Recovery and Fertility Podcast. Here, we discuss the challenging, rewarding and life changing process of recovering your period and finding freedom with food and exercise. Whether you’re hoping to regain your cycle to get your health back on track or you’re ready to become a mama, this podcast is for you. While the recovery process isn’t always rainbows and butterflies, it’s my hope to bring you both information and inspiration during your own recovery journey. I’m your host, registered dietitian and fellow HA woman, Lindsey Lusson. 

Lindsey Lusson  01:31

Michelle is a Registered Dietitian with her Master’s in Health Psychology. She is the owner/founder of Yates Nutrition with a mission to both treat and prevent eating disorders for women all over the world. Michelle ultimately leads women away from habits and behaviors which can be destructive, discouraging, and disordered and leads them to a healthy relationship with food, fitness, and their bodies. Michelle hosts Nourished & Free: The Podcast and lives in the Midwest with her husband, 2 kids, and cat.

Lindsey Lusson  01:56

Welcome everyone to the Period Recovery and Fertility Podcast. I have a colleague on today to talk to us about a little bit of a different topic. But something that I know so many people are struggling with in period recovery, or at least think that they are. So let me first just introduce our guest, Michelle, and Welcome 

Michelle Yates  02:13

Hi. Thanks for having me. I’m so excited to be here. 

Lindsey Lusson  02:16

Yes, absolutely. I feel like we’ve been liking each others’ stuff and connecting in the dm. So now it’s time to make and record a podcast together. 

Michelle Yates  02:25

Yes, yes. That’s my favorite progression of a Instagram colleague relationship.

Lindsey Lusson  02:31

That was so organic and natural. And I think today’s going to be super fun. So why don’t you start by just telling us a little bit more about what you do today, and kind of how you got there. Did you become a registered dietitian? Because I definitely didn’t. Did you become a registered dietitian thinking that I want to work in the eating disorder, disorder eating space?

Michelle Yates  02:49

I did, actually. Well, when I first learned with what a dietitian was, it was when I was in high school and one of my dance teachers was dietitian, and she worked in dialysis with kidney patients. And yeah, I was like, Wait, there’s a profession that is all about nutrition. Because I love nutrition. I’m obsessed with it. So moving on to a job. And yes, I was very interested in eating disorders right away. A part of that, looking back hindsight, is always 2020. I think a part of that was because I related to it. Like I just said, I was already obsessed with nutrition. So I was very interested in the field. 

Michelle Yates  03:29

Turns out that was a bit of an unhealthy obsession, and it took me a long time to realize that. So when I finally did get into college to pursue dietetics, I took an eating disorders elective class. I don’t know about you, Lindsey, but my program did not offer anything beyond just an elective about eating disorders. So most of the students didn’t even take that class or get any education about it because they did the sports nutrition class instead, or whatever, you know. But I was like, Well, I really want to go into this field, so of course, I’m gonna elect to take this. 

Michelle Yates  04:02

And then I was reading through some of the symptoms and diagnostic criteria, and I was like, oh gosh this actually sounds a lot like me. I thought that I was good, but I maybe I’m not. So yeah, that was very eye opening, and it actually just fueled my desire to want to work in that field even more, because then, as I started to become more knowledgeable about the field of nutrition and biology and everything, it was like, Oh, wow, I am being actually ridiculous about this. I need to show. 

Michelle Yates  04:33

Nutrition is not all or nothing, and there’s no perfect diet, etc, etc. And getting to a place of being free from that obsession and feeling like I was always thinking about food and obsessive about it was so… it’s like my world went from black and white to color, and I was able to enjoy things again. So I was like, Okay, if I can help other people with this. Love it. I already kind of wanted to anyway, but now. I’ve got this personal experience to be able to empathize, and I feel that helps. And it’s interesting, because I know that’s usually the story right for helpers, is I used to feel this way. Now I help others with it.

Michelle Yates  05:13

And I think there’s something to that. It’s powerful when you get to the other side and you want to help others get there too. So, yeah, I did, long story short, always have interest in the field, but that interest got fueled throughout my education because of my own struggles.

Lindsey Lusson  05:29

Yeah, so I think that we did have eating disorder education. I mean, we definitely learned how to screen for eating disorders. And it’s funny because I would read the screening check tier, and I would be maybe that could be me. I was very, very much in denial about my eating disorder when I was going through dietetics. And I’ve kind of asked this question to a couple of different dietitians on this podcast before. But it’s interesting, when you think about dietitians are at a higher risk for developing eating disorders curriculum alone, unless grooms you for that. 

Lindsey Lusson  06:04

Unfortunately, because there is so much weight stigma, there is so much focus on calories and movement and expenditure for weight control.  That’s a big part of what we learn and what we’re to spread to the masses. But I’ve also thought about this a lot. So you mentioned one of the reasons you wanted to get into dietetics was because you loved food, you loved nutrition. Same for me. 

Lindsey Lusson  06:25

I’m sure for some of your clients, but a lot of my clients are obsessed with nutrition. They know the nitty gritty details. People are coming in probably know as much as me or more, in certain situations when people are just, reading all the literature all the time, and I don’t have time to do that. But I’m curious if you think that maybe the reason why dietitians are at higher risk for eating disorders, and why they’re even drawn to the field in the first place is because they’re already struggling with disordered eating.

Michelle Yates  06:55

100%. I think it goes both ways, and it’s a bit of a chicken and the egg situationwhich one comes first. I think they both happen all the time. Well, and even when we just think about predisposing factors that contribute to developing an eating disorder. I think somebody can be maybe perfectly fine with their relationship with food. But for whatever reason, they have these little dominoes that are just ready to fall at any moment. 

Michelle Yates  07:22

When they get into the curriculum, then they fall, you know? And it’s like, oh, we’re now even more obsessed with this. And that wasn’t an obsession before, yeah. But then there… I think a lot of people do get into the field. I’ve certainly talked with a lot of dietitians who have gotten into the field because they were preoccupied by thoughts of food and already felt like they were awesome at nutrition and wanted to make a career out of it, because they were already thinking about it all the time, you know? 

Michelle Yates  07:52

So, yeah, I think it’s pretty common, unfortunately. And I wish there was more support for dietitians in that and screening for the students. You know what I mean? 

Lindsey Lusson  08:03

Well, one thing that I hear being adopted into more curriculums now. I’m 38 so I went through college  20 years ago, which makes me sound like someone’s full of…

Michelle Yates  08:14

You’re in your… 38 is not old girl. That is like you’re in your prime time. 

Lindsey Lusson  08:19

But when I was going through, there was no intuitive eating. There was no heealth at every size. I’ve heard of that being incorporated into more curriculums, which I think actually gives more people who might be struggling with an obsessive, disordered relationship with food. A little bit of an out, or at least a different perspective of what they can do with it. So I am hopeful about that. 

Michelle Yates  08:40

Yeah, I think there needs to be more of the perspective of somebody who has been in the eating disorder field. And it’s like, well, yes, these things matter, but they don’t matter when it’s ruining your psychological health. Which then impacts your physical health. There’s so much nuance to it. And I agree with you. Our curriculum is very focused on, weight control, calories in, calories out, like all of that. But there’s all these social determinants of health that matter too. And our relationship with food that matters. 

Lindsey Lusson  09:15

Yeah, that was definitely more of my experience. But also think about it a different way. It also sounds like we were in different spots in healing our relationship with food. You were going through college knowing, hey, I want a healthier relationship with food. I want to get into this field. I want to help people with eating disorders. So in order to do that, my relationship with food has to be solid. 

Michelle Yates  09:15

I think I did have good professors that were great at being like, by the way, it’s okay to have cake on your birthday or whatever. I just had chips for lunch, things like that. So I think that our professors generally did model a really healthy relationship with food, which was super healing for me. But, I know that there’s programs out there where it’s the opposite, and it’s not modeling a great relationship with food. 

Lindsey Lusson  10:01

And I was very la, la, la. I’m the healthiest person ever. I have so much more discipline than you. I’m better than you. So I’m sure that I perked up more to professors who were eating a cupcake. If you did this every single day for the rest of your life, you would put on 20 pounds for a year. But you know, that type of crap. I can stick with you, especially if you’re struggling with an eating disorder. So…

Michelle Yates  10:26

Absolutely, and yes. I definitely had my periods of denial too. So I don’t want to misrepresent that I for sure did. And  I went through the phase of I’m better than you, judging other people. But yes, to your point. I think by the time I was actually in college, I was a little bit more primed to hearing what I needed to hear. 

Lindsey Lusson  10:46

And your work today is so valuable because you actually work with people… you work with the most common eating disorder. So tell us a little bit more about what you do today.

Michelle Yates  10:57

Yeah, I stumbled into working with binge eating kind of accidentally, because for my story, I related a lot more to restrictive and anorexia type disordered eating. I definitely had periods of binging, which was like, for somebody who bends towards the restrictive side, that’s just like the most horrifying thing in the world. When you catch yourself doing something like that. It’s like, what is happening? I need to get this under control. So, yeah, I would have periods of binge eating, and then I would purge because I felt guilty about it. Or I would try to purge, and I couldn’t successfully. Like, there was just, I’ve kind of dabbled, I think, in all forms of disordered eating. 

Michelle Yates  11:36

So I can relate to it. But really, my love for binge eating started after I began working with women in the field of eating disorders. That specific one just seems to be wrapped up in so much shame and guilt. Because as a society, women are and men too. It’s just that I work with women. So I talk about women a lot. Women are expected to be well, they’re expected to look a certain way. They’re expected to have self control. They’re expected to have a good diet, you know? And if they don’t, then they’re judged really harshly. 

Michelle Yates  12:10

And the women that typically struggle with binge eating are also women who have tried 1000 different diets, and that’s just been reinforced, that they need to have self control, they need to have discipline. They need to have willpower and eat clean and eat low carb or whatever. So this shame, just like builds and builds and builds and builds. That is heartbreaking to see in somebody when they’re struggling with binging. It breaks them at some point, and they do not want to leave the house, they’re ashamed of their habits. 

Michelle Yates  12:43

In a lot of cases, it’s led to excessive weight gain. They’re embarrassed about that. And it’s just heartbreaking how much it takes away their life. And so as I was working with more women through that, and seeing them be able to walk free from that and then. The aftermath of now, they’re not self conscious about that anymore. They don’t carry that guilt on their shoulders anymore. They’re not wondering when the next binge is going to be or if they’re going to binge after this event that they go to. 

Michelle Yates  13:18

They’re just able to be present, live their life, take care of themselves, feel confident in the way that they’re taking care of themselves. And it’s just it changes their self worth, I guess. Anyway, I just love it. It’s very rewarding. So I think, because it is so common, it’s interesting to see, more and more people coming forward about it. But to that point that I said earlier, there is so much shame. So there’s a lot of people struggling who don’t admit that they’re struggling. 

Lindsey Lusson  13:51

What would be the top three things that you wish all women knew about binge eating and struggling with binge eating disorder? 

Michelle Yates  13:58

Well, the number one would just be that, there are so many people struggling with it. For somebody that’s listening to this right now, if you struggle with binge eating, think about how much you don’t want to talk about that with other people. And you don’t want to admit that that’s something you struggle with. Now, think about all the other people who also feel that exact same way that are in your life, that maybe are struggling with this, but you have no clue, because they also don’t want to talk about it. 

Michelle Yates  14:22

It’s not exactly something you want to share at a party with somebody like, Hey, I struggle with binging.  I just had a whole pizza and a pint of ice cream last night, and I feel awful today. You know. 

Lindsey Lusson  14:31

Well, don’t you also think that people kind of normalize it and laugh it off, like, Oh my gosh. I’ve been binging on eggnog all over the holidays. And in one way, they might be minimizing what really might be going on. On the other hand, and we’ll get into this on this episode too, because I know that this is really important for people to hear, and especially this audience and these listeners. That they’ll think something is avenged. That’s not really a binge. It could just be like, Oh my gosh. You haven’t had eggnog all year long. 

Lindsey Lusson  15:00

And so it kind of makes sense knowing that, hey January 1st, maybe, if you’re getting some expired eggnog, January 50, it’s going away and it’s not going to come back for a whole year. So it kind of makes sense that you’ve got this scarcity mindset. Therefore you might over consume it.

Michelle Yates  15:16

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean, that’s a good point. There is some normalization as well. I think it depends on who you’re around to, and the community you’re around, which is such an important thing. The people you surround yourself with your environment. There’s the social environment and the cultural one, but then there’s also the more immediate one that you are around every day. Co workers, family, friends, whatever. And that can have such a huge impact on your relationship with food, and especially if there’s that normalization of, like, oh man. Yeah, I just ate, ate a whole package of Oreos last night, because I and that’s just a joke. And it’s like, maybe, I don’t know, maybe you didn’t have to do that, though. Can we dig enough? 

Michelle Yates  15:56

But I do think it’s a little bit of a coping response to to joke about it and not see it as a problem. And then also, there’s just a lack of awareness sometimes, so that could be a problem. So yeah, that’s the first thing is, I just wish that it was more common knowledge how many people struggled with it. But I also get it. I get why people don’t talk about it very much, and it’s just an unfortunate reality of the situation. 

Michelle Yates  16:20

The second thing is, I wish that women knew more about how much their mindset is playing into it. I think when there’s so much emphasis on the self control and the discipline and the willpower and the restriction, it’s easy to just feel like I’m just so weak. I have no willpower, I can’t do this. There’s something wrong with me. I always self sabotage. But then we don’t really, like, dig into the why? Why do we feel so weak? Why do we feel like we always self sabotage? And that all starts with your mindset, and there’s also a biological element of that too. 

Michelle Yates  16:55

When there’s so much restriction going on, you just , it doesn’t matter what your mind is thinking, your body’s going to take over in that survival mode and get you to eat. So there’s that piece too. But when that’s not a factor, and we’re continuing to binge because of emotional reasons or psychological restraint, distress over dieting or trying to follow food rules, whatever it is, it’s like we got to dig into that more. We can’t just neglect that and be like, Oh, this is just who I am. Well, why do you feel that way? Why do you feel so weak? Why do you feel like you don’t have willpower? What are the thoughts and beliefs that are contributing to that? 

Michelle Yates  17:34

And then I think the third thing too, just kind of playing off of something I mentioned in the second one, is how helpful nutrition can be a lot of times.  I’m sure that you see this too Lindsey, a lot of times, probably like 80 to 90% of the time, when somebody comes to me for binging after getting to know a little bit of their story, there’s this moment where they’re like, Well, I do so good during the day, I have a protein shake in the morning. 

Michelle Yates  17:57

I have my salad at lunch, and then in The afternoon, I just start getting this nagging feeling, and I want to snack, and I want to snack, and I resist. And then at home, when I get home from work, or when the kids go to bed, or whatever, I just feel so out of control. And it’s like, well, sis, you’ve had maybe 300 calories all day. Your body’s like, Yo…

Michelle Yates  18:21

Nutrition can be so, so helpful. And there’s also an element too, that I don’t think is talked about very much, of just the composition of your diet. If you don’t have enough proteins and healthy fats and fibers in your diet, then you’re not feeling satiated as often. Carbohydrates are absolutely an essential part. But those are just generally easier to eat than the other things, we don’t normally think about those other elements. 

Michelle Yates  18:44

So combining all of that together and creating balance and consistency and having a good cadence throughout the day of meals and snacks is so helpful. I mean, most of the time that solves our binging problems is just like being consistent with nutrition and not shying away from the carbs or the fiber or the fats or whatever it is, and just like taking care of the body and make sure it’s eating enough. So that’s the other thing too that I think I really wish people would know.

Lindsey Lusson  19:16

Well, because so many women are just chronically under eating and they don’t really understand. I’ve seen this in a lot of our clients, especially people who are really active, is they’ll eat what they think is enough all day long. Having done an hour plus worth of exercise first thing in the morning, and they feel like they’re eating enough for period recovery. But what they’re not recognizing is their body has basically been starved all day long. 

Lindsey Lusson  19:40

So even if the calories were the same, and there’s research to support this. Women who are within day calorie deficit, they’re going to have a harder time having healthy sex hormones, because regardless of what happens at the end of the day, there might be eight to 12 hours where your body is starving and you’re just ignoring it.

Michelle Yates  19:59

Yeah. Absolutely. And it goes back to again that expectation that so many women put on themselves because of what’s put on them, to be perfect with their diet, to not overeat, to be afraid to eat enough. I think so many women just don’t realize how much food they actually need, especially if they’re exercising and everything. \

Lindsey Lusson  20:21

Yeah, well, you kind of already touched upon this about how binge eating impacts us psychologically. But I’d love for you to expand on that a little bit more about how binge eating can impact us physiologically. What’s going on with the body and why is it harmful beyond just the weight piece? Because I feel like that’s the part that gets demonized is, oh my gosh. I don’t have to going to gain so much weight, etc. 

Lindsey Lusson  20:43

But, like, physiologically, what’s going on? Why is binge eating harmful to the body? And psychologically, how is this impacting the body, and why is this something that really requires a high level of support from someone like yourself to recover from?

Michelle Yates  20:56

Yeah, so so many layers to that. Well, for one thing, it’s causing so much stress on the body. Think about, again, the guilt and the shame that comes along with binging and over eating and eating in secret and all of that. There’s so much stress not only leading up to that, but then after, because of the shame that we then feel for doing that. And as we know, chronic stress is not great. It’s not great, and it’s ironic too, because I think a lot of times the stress, the initial stress that causes us to binge is the stress to be healthy.  We’re trying so so hard to be healthy and to follow that diet and to do whatever the thing is. 

Michelle Yates  21:40

And in a response to coping with that stress, we then turn to food, which creates even more. So it’s just  this really toxic cycle that is not great. And then, yeah, I mean the guilt and the shame that comes along with that is mentally not healthy. Binge eating, unfortunately, has a pretty… I can’t remember off the top of my head, I want to say it’s one in four people who struggle with binge eating disorder will attempt suicide, which is heartbreaking. So again, that element there of  mental health wise, a lot of individuals struggling with binge eating also struggle with anxiety, depression, personality disorders. So there’s a lot there. 

Michelle Yates  22:25

And obviously I think binge eating is one of the highest with mortality rates because of the suicide risk. It’s horrible. So there’s that piece. And then biologically, too, when we’re having prolonged periods, or, I’m sorry, prolonged seasons of intaking excessive amounts of calories that can always be harmful for our health in a variety of ways. And I don’t need to talk about the weight gain, because that’s already on everybody’s mind all the time. But there’s also just the the component of, okay, now this is increasing your risk for diabetes or for cholesterol problems, cardiovascular issues. 

Michelle Yates  23:05

It’s something that you don’t want to mess with. You don’t want to sit there and wait it out and wait for something to just magically click. Because the thing is, with binging, it is a coping response. It’s a neural pathway in your brain that’s like firing. Whenever it happens, there’s a connection being made, and it gets stronger and stronger and stronger. And if you don’t address that early on, it just gets harder and harder to overcome and to undo that wiring in your brain and create a new pathway to go down instead. 

Michelle Yates  23:36

And I think that’s where I like to your question, where professional help can be so helpful. Because sometimes there’s things that you don’t know and you don’t know what you don’t know, and that’s okay. We all have tdon’t know everything, and that’s it’s impossible to know everything. So if this is something that poses such a risk to your health, both physically, but also your quality of life, mental health as well. Why would you want to wait to be sure that you’re doing it right and that you’re getting help for it? This is urgent. This is something that’s urgent if it’s if it’s happening a lot. So that’s, I don’t know if that answers your question fully, but that’s where my thought goes. 

Lindsey Lusson  24:16

How do you help clients get over their… what is the right word? Maybe pride with I should just have more willpower. I should be able to get this under control? How do you help people understand that? And maybe this can also lead into explaining some of just the cycle of binge binging and why this can go on in people for years and years and years.

Michelle Yates  24:38

Yeah, I think trying to zoom out and and take the emotions and the and the personification out of it. This isn’t about you in some way. It’s a problem of the method. It’s the problem of what we’re trying to do here. If we’re trying to over restrict or we’re trying to meet unrealistic expectations, or we’re trying to cope with stress in this way.That is an issue of the method and the approach. It’s not an issue of of you and your willpower and your ability to do something. 

Michelle Yates  25:22

So I think just education on that is really important, and showing like, Hey, here’s what happens when we do this,, biologically, psychologically, psychologically. Something that a lot of women don’t know is, and maybe you teach them this Lindsey. But when we starve ourselves over a long period of time, we have this thing called neuropeptide Y. I remember reading about it in school, and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. And it drives us towards eating more carbohydrates, and that increases. It’s a gut brain peptide. It increases when you continue to go without food. 

Michelle Yates  25:45

And so there’s this element of like back to our example of the protein shake in the morning and then the salad at lunch. You’ve got so much neuropeptide Wi Fi against you by the end of the day that that’s just like biology doing its thing. It’s not a willpower thing. It is not because you’re not good enough or not because you’re failing or don’t have enough discipline. It is biology doing its thing because you do need more food. Because at the end of the day, you are living in a body that has needs, and that is just survival 101, you need calories. 

Michelle Yates  26:14

So it helps, I think, a lot with  the pride piece, when we just see, the science and the data and the like, oh, okay, I can disconnect my pride from this thing, because it wasn’t about me in the first place. It was about the human body in general and the human psyche in general. And the method that I was trying to use. 

Lindsey Lusson  26:33

I think it can be helpful too, in thinking about, like, hey, my body is trying to protect me, right? Whether completely recognize this or believe this, my body is starved. Regardless of what I weigh, regardless of my BMI. If I have been through prolonged restriction, my body is literally trying to keep me alive, and so it’s going to be on my mind when I finally allow myself to eat. Of course, the floodgates are going to be open because my body is basically saying, Oh, I know that Lindsey’s gonna restrict tomorrow. I know we’re only allowed X number of calories during the day, so we better get as much in as possible right now…

Lindsey Lusson  27:10

And so I think that sometimes just reminding ourselves, like, hey, this isn’t a you thing. This is biology, your body’s trying to fight to keep you alive. Can take some of the pressure and the stress off of it.

Michelle Yates  27:21

I agree, and I love that too. This is your body doing its job. It’s keeping you alive. It’s actually caring for you. We need to learn how to work alongside of the body, instead of fighting it and trying to punish it. And I think that’s the biggest shift that we need to make with any type of disordered eating, is we need to go from punishing and rejecting the body to working with it.

Lindsey Lusson  27:44

So on that note, I’m going to ask you a question that I’m sure you get asked all day, every day, and that’s I want to heal from binge eating disorder, but I’m afraid of adopting an approach that might lead to me gaining weight. I want to heal from binge eating but I don’t want to let go of my food rules my dieting. I still need to control my body. How do I heal from that while still doing what I want to do?

Michelle Yates  28:09

Yeah. It’s something that comes up a lot where we want to stop binging. We know we need to have a healthy relationship with food, but there’s weight, yeah. Oh, that’s really scary to not be dieting. So something that I just always gently like to point out is in the attempts to lose weight that you’ve been doing for however long decades, probably did that ever lead to long term weight loss? Usually the answer is no. Usually the answer is no. I’ve ended up higher than I have ever been, and I’m struggling with binging more than I ever have. 

Michelle Yates  28:41

And so what I like to explain to our clients is I am not of the camp that weight loss is always a bad thing, or that,ntentional weight loss even is always a bad thing. I don’t like to live in extreme. But I do think that when you’re struggling with something like binging, and there’s been this coexistence of pursuing weight loss, and that problem’s gotten worse. What if that’s actually creating the problem in the first place? And what if we remove that denominator, not because we’re forgoing health, or we’re forgoing your pursuit of health or whatever, but because, what if that’s actually causing you to binge in the first place. 

Michelle Yates  29:21

What if we just took that off the table for a second or four months and thought about all of the other things that are going on. Because that intense focus on shrinking the body, getting the scale to move all of that, it makes it so hard to then address the things that need to be addressed that will create sustainable, healthy habits. We just get so stuck in the frame of mind of, like, I gotta get this weight off, and then we start to do really stupid things in order to get it off. And they’re not sustainable, and they could be setting you up to binge. 

Michelle Yates  29:56

That’s why I don’t say that we work with weight loss necessarily, because it could be a side effect. But I actually think it’s really, really helpful when our clients take the focus off of that, so that they then have the space and the ability to breathe and think about all the other things that have been going on and see how that could have potentially been making the binging worse than long run. 

Michelle Yates  30:17

So for a lot of women, flipping it on its head does produce weight loss in the long term. But with that being said, if somebody does end up gaining weight, because not everybody that we work with. We work with women that have a variety of body sizes and shapes and all of that. There is no look for somebody that struggles with binge eating. It’s like, it’s all across the spectrum. So if you do end up gaining weight as a result, but you’ve been creating healthier habits that work for you and make you feel really good, energetically, mentally, you’re able to enjoy your life with your family, because now you can go out and have ice cream from time to time. You’re stronger in the gym,  all these things, then maybe that was a good thing for you. 

Michelle Yates  31:02

Do we really need to get that weight off again if it means being miserable again and probably just gaining it right back anyway? Plus more. So it’s it’s a really hard shift to make when we’re so used to being hyper fixated on looking a certain way and fitting a certain mold. And I totally empathize with that. I get it, it’s so hard. It is so hard. But what if taking that focus away is actually what you need to really break through and focus on what’s underneath the surface with you right now? 

Lindsey Lusson  31:34

Yeah. So so powerful. And I think that ultimately healing from any eating disorder, you have to take weight out of the equation. Because the fact of the matter is, if somebody is on either end of the spectrum, restricting a ton, suppressing their natural body weight or so out of tune with what their body needs, that they’re just over consuming food, and they’re above where their body wants to be. And they’ve been doing that for a decade, we don’t really know actually where your body’s natural Healthy point is. So it’s impossible for us to say, lose weight, you will gain weight like we don’t know. Yeah. And so focusing on those other aspects is so, so helpful. 

Lindsey Lusson  32:09

We’ve been talking a lot about binge eating disorder and people who struggle with binge eating disorder. I want to bring into the conversation people who think that they’re struggling with binge eating disorder, and it might just be a reactive piece of their restrictive eating disorder. Now this gets a little bit murky, because, as you’ve already alluded to, there’s just, quite frankly, a lot of overlap in all the different types of eating disorders. Honestly, it’s even hard to… Luckily we don’t diagnose those dietitians. 

Lindsey Lusson  32:34

But sometimes it’s hard to pinpoint what is the actual eating disorder. And sometimes you can kind of have pieces of all these different types of eating disorders, and it’s just what the eating disorder is doing, and they can definitely morph over time. So do you have, a clinical definition of what a binge is, or how somebody would actually fit the criteria for binge eating disorder?

Michelle Yates  32:53

Yeah, so when we’re looking at the DSM five, the clinical definition for a binge is eating an amount of food that is definitely more than anybody else would in that same circumstance in a short period of time. Usually about two hours or less. Plus this feeling of having a loss of control. So taking it at face value, you might right now be thinking of like, okay, well, that helps to paint a picture of what a binge truly looks like. But I also want to add this caveat here that it’s actually not that great of a definition. It’s kind of gray. It’s the best we got.

Lindsey Lusson  33:30

If I’ve been under eating for a long time, to go back to one of one of my favorite pieces of content of yours, there was a point in time when I was struggling with my eating disorder where I probably would have thought me eating four Oreos when my intention was to eat one or none. I might have personally felt out of control. I might have that was more food than a person should have, according to eaten in that setting. Therefore I have all around food. Therefore I have been cheating disorder.

Michelle Yates  33:58

Absolutely, absolutely and so that it gets really murky. And also think about  somebody, so I’m only five foot tall, like my needs are much lower than your average person, or six foot five athlete. My needs versus Michael Phelps are vastly different. And so what I would eat in a normal circumstance is so different than what he would eat. I would probably consider how he eats, binge eating. Maybe I don’t know, I don’t know his needs in particular. But I can only guess.  So that it’s, it’s tricky. 

Michelle Yates  34:28

I think you gotta do your best to gather data on  your situation, who you are, somebody else in a similar circumstance. And also, I think it’s important too, to recognize that that similar circumstance piece of the definition is really important. We’re not talking about Thanksgiving or something. Because everybody in that similar circumstance is eating the same way. Not that you need to, by the way, you don’t need to binge on Thanksgiving. You can just have a normal amount of food and enjoy it. We don’t need to make that a thing. But it is. 

Michelle Yates  34:59

But with that being said, it is also kind of just like normal to do that in that circumstance. So if you’re eating that amount of food, though, a Thanksgiving level amount of food on a random Tuesday night in the middle of the summer when nobody else is around, and you’re doing it in secret, and you feel a lot of guilt about it, you feel out of control. Then perhaps we’re looking at a binge. 

Lindsey Lusson  35:17

And where I see the binge cycle show up most often in women who are experiencing missing periods or regular periods or fertility issues as a result, is when people are having the binges that their compensation is so strong that their weight really isn’t changing, right? So if somebody is having, like, a 6000 calorie binge, but they’re compensating so much with exercise and they’re restricting so much to make up for it, like that, is a recipe for disaster, for your hormones.

Michelle Yates  35:17

Then binge eating disorder is when we start to attach frequency to it. How often is this happening? And then are there also these side effects of often eating until we’re uncomfortably full, feeling a lot of guilt and shame about that, eating in secret, things like that. So yeah, there’s, I like to say there’s, this casual binging, where we think we’re binging because we had four Oreos instead of one. And then there’s this clinical binging where it’s no, we this is a true binge. Somebody had the whole package, plus they had an entire pizza and a pint of ice cream. You know? 

Michelle Yates  36:22

Oh, yeah, that restrict binge roller coaster is so real. There can also be another catalyst for that cycle can be just emotional state. It doesn’t necessarily need to be that you were restricting. Like I said before, if we solve the restriction piece, that usually solves a lot of binging, but there’s still individuals who that’s not what’s going on, and that’s not the catalyst for that cycle. And it’s more related to their emotional state. 

Michelle Yates  36:44

So binging, we can think about binging is usually a result of unmet needs in one of three categories. Number one being biological. Like we’ve been discussing the physical, needing to eat more food. The second one is emotional, emotional state, emotional needs. And then the third one is psychological restraint, which is that I feel like I shouldn’t be eating this. I am eating it so it’s not a physical restriction. I am putting it in my body. But psychologically, I still feel these rules egging away at me like I shouldn’t be doing this.

Lindsey Lusson  37:19

I can only have this much. It’s hard to identify because those voices just live rent free in our head, and we ourselves and think I don’t have willpower. When, in reality, your whole psyche around the food that you’re consuming sure you’re having it better than not having it. But if it’s tearing you up inside, psychologically, you’re not going to digest it well. You’re not going to feel good. You’ve got to be more, more likely to eat more than what would feel good for you in that moment. You’ll misss that a lot.

Michelle Yates  37:50

They do, because that sense of like, I shouldn’t be doing this, then creates more guilt after the fact, and now we’ve got this guilt that we want to escape from. Which we can then turn to food for that as well. So it’s like anytime we create another negative feeling because of the past binge, we’re kind of setting ourselves up for another binge. So that’s where that. self compassion piece is so important. 

Michelle Yates  38:11

And you know, I’m somebody that’s like, I’m not very fluffy, I’m very logical, I’m pretty even keeled when it comes to emotions. So when somebody talks about self compassion or Grace, I’m kind of just whatever. Shut up. We’re just being fluffy. But self compassion really is so important here. Just from, a scientific perspective, if you give yourself Self Compassion instead of the guilt, it helps you to then tap into your prefrontal cortex better the front of your brain, where you’re doing more logic and reasoning and be able to think through how do I want to grow through this? How do I want to learn from this? 

Michelle Yates  38:47

When you’re not allowing yourself that self compassion and grace, then we’re just creating more stress. It’s harder to think well, it’s harder to reason and plan accordingly and learn from it. So yeah, I just think that we’re always going to be stuck in that cycle. i we keep beating ourselves up about it. There’s got to be some break in the cycle where you’re okay, it’s okay. I am a human. This is something that I have been doing for a long time. So of course, I’ve done it again. Learned response in my body and that my brain is  facilitating. So how can I learn from this and make adjustments going forward?

Lindsey Lusson  39:25

And it’s so hard to take those emotions out, because I think that our feelings are intricately not to get too fluffy again, on you Michelle. But are feeling [indecipherable]… Not just we want to be stoic and take the emotion out. It just is. And, you know, it sounds like breaking that cycle first starts with adequate energy availability, right? Like you are never going to get out of this binge restrict cycle if you’re continuing to restrict and then binge.

Lindsey Lusson  39:57

So getting the nutrition is so important. Getting enough and having, you know, the right macronutrients, having the right nutrient timing throughout the day, that’s so important. Once someone is doing that, though, and  for our population, eating enough food is going to result in weight gain. And that’s a necessary part of someone being able to restore their fertility and get their period and heal their relationship with food. It has to happen. 

Lindsey Lusson  40:26

How do you support people in healing the relationship with food when weight gain is part of that? How do you help them recognize that weight gain didn’t have to be bad, especially for coming from a place of undernourishment? 

Michelle Yates  40:34

I think that’s where the body image piece is so important, and really digging into why we feel like weight gain is distressing, why we automatically attach that as being bad. And what that means for us, if we gain if I were to gain weight, what does that mean? How does that make me feel? And why? Really digging into the why of where those feelings come from, and all the thoughts and beliefs that are behind that.

Michelle Yates  40:40

I think it’s so important, because if we neglect that, then we’re just going to continue to bump up against that and be like, oh, shoot, again. Wait, gotta go back and then. But if that’s genuinely healthier, because now we’re restoring fertility and all of that, then then we shouldn’t be fighting against that. And it’s also important to remember,  the value there of, I’m assuming, in your case, a lot of women are wanting to get pregnant, so that’s why they’re reaching out to you and everything. One of your deepest longings in life is to have a family. Are you willing to gain a little bit of weight for that? 

Michelle Yates  41:33

You know that’s probably what we’re going to need to do here in order to get you into a state of balance and everything. And so I think there’s, there can be this disconnect of we put our weight and our image in this other category away from all the rest of our values and the things that relate to our health. But we need to put them together and realize that sometimes waking is the healthy thing and waking is a part of pursuing the things that we truly value The most? 

Lindsey Lusson  42:01

I think going back to core values is so important. And it’s interesting when I work with clients, and I start getting into some of those that work… Is your core value being thin, so thin that you can’t have a baby, so thin that you have to study the menu every single time you go out to eat. You can’t allow your husband to cook for you. You have to have these special foods when you go on vacation.  Is that who you are at the core? Are these the type of pressures we’re putting on other people? 

Lindsey Lusson  42:28

And they’re like, Oh, my God, of course not. I would never not be friends with somebody because, you know, they gained 15 pounds or whatever. Or I would never, you know, expect Michelle to always have, you know, the salad with the dressing on the side for lunch, right? Like interesting that a lot of people put these pressures and expectations on themselves. And it’s like, whoa, wait a second. Maybe that’s not who I am at my core. And so it’s just kind of shifting that identity. Not that it can’t value wanting to feel good in your body, but it is important to get to a place where we can feel good in our body, in a body that is actually biologically healthy. 

Michelle Yates  43:05

Absolutely. I love that. Yeah. Is it something that you truly value, that you can never eat at a restaurant again, unless you’re pouring over the menu or or bringing your own ticket…

Lindsey Lusson  43:16

Yeah. Well, awesome. Well, Michelle, you’ve been so great and unpacking what binge eating is, what it looks like, how common it is, how it can be intertwined in other parts of eating disorders. If somebody wants to know more about you and how you work with clients, how can they get in touch and follow along and work with you? 

Michelle Yates  43:34

Thanks for asking so you can go to my website, yatesnutrition.com. That’s kind of like a one stop shop for all the different ways to connect with me and learn from me. I have a podcast called Nourished & Free: The Podcast. And if you’re listening to this, I do know that you, in fact, like to listen to podcasts. So feel free to jump over and search nourished and free wherever you’re listening to your podcast, and you’ll find mine. I talk about things like this, binging, emotional overeating. 

Michelle Yates  44:00

I also do a lot of myth busting on there, because I think that’s important for continuing to be sure we stop that cycle. And then, yeah, I’m on Instagram too. I’m on all socials, but really. I don’t really like doing all the things, so I’m usually on Instagram more. So you can hang out with me there at Yates nutrition. But yeah, I’ve always got some sort of free resource floating around. So if you want to just kind of learn more and get plugged into my world a little bit. Feel free to check out my website and poke around and and see what I’ve got for you. 

Lindsey Lusson  44:26

And she has amazing content on Instagram. I’m sure on other platforms too, but I am with you that she can’t be on every platform all day, every day. So Instagram’s a good one to hang out, yeah. Well, thanks again so much for your time today, and I know that everybody is going to find this episode super valuable, especially because we are soon heading into holiday season. So thanks again.

Michelle Yates  44:48

Thank you.

Connect with Lindsey Lusson: 

Instagram: @‌food.freedom.fertility
Website: www.foodfreedomandfertility.com/
Twitter: @LindseyLusson
Tiktok: @food.freedom.fertility